Kirill Pankratov (![[info]](http://l-stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif){kind=small} neznaika_nalune) wrote,@ 2008-04-26 14:15:00 |
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"Экономист" роет вглубь
В смысле докапывается до новых глубин грязи и мерзости. Главный герой, конечно жеорёл наш Дон Реба Едвард Лукас,
Cold War hustler по выражению "Экзайла".
В статье Baltic Puzzler перед годовщиной "Бронзовой ночи", в частности утверждается (на тему русских в Эстонии):
"Grim post-Soviet mortality rates will shrink the problem eventually. But for now it is hard to see a good outcome.":
"Скорее всего, со временем масштаб проблемы будет сокращаться - хотя бы потому, что уровень смертности в постсоветское время остается очень высоким. Но на сегодняшний день хорошего выхода из положения все еще не просматривается." http://www.inosmi.ru/translation/240994.h
Типа, у нас тут проблема - слишком много русских в странах прибалтики. К счастью, смертность в пост-советских странах так высока, что проблема "постепенно рассосётся" (а если ещё поспособствовать со смертностью, так рассосётся быстрее).
По этому поводу у нас состоялся в некоей коллективной "кремлиноведческой" переписке любопытный обмен мнениями (потом с участием самого Лукаса). Я приведу десь большую часть его, как это перекидывалось в е-мэйлах (т.е. начинается снизу, более поздние записи сверху):
Edward Lucas in the Economist: "Grim post-Soviet mortality rates will shrink the problem eventually"
Kirill in response: That's essentially saying in plain words that "Good Russian is a dead Russian.... This is beyond despicable."
Hmmmm, speaking as a Brit who doesn't particularly agree with Edward Lucas, I think you're missing the darkly deadpan (and very peculiar) British sense of humour.
Best wishes
Andy
Сам Лукас вроде бы не вёдит в список адресов, но кто-то ему рассказал. Я получил от него конфидециальное сообщение, которое я не буду здесь приводить (общий смысл - я его неправильно понял, и вообще, типа что мне перед ним извиняься надо). Ниже мой ответ ему:
Mr. Lucas,
The point of discussion is not the mortality statistics in the former USSR world. And I don't think there is any misunderstanding here.
There is a problem: too many Russians is the Baltic states (Estonia in particular) - that was expressed numerous times not only in this article, but pretty much in all of your writing on this subject.
"...for now it is hard to see a good outcome" - tells the next sentence. But, fortunately, the death rates in the post-USSR are so high, that this "will shrink the problem eventually".
Yes, we understand you perfectly well.
Have a nice day.
В смысле докапывается до новых глубин грязи и мерзости. Главный герой, конечно же
Cold War hustler по выражению "Экзайла".
В статье Baltic Puzzler перед годовщиной "Бронзовой ночи", в частности утверждается (на тему русских в Эстонии):
"Grim post-Soviet mortality rates will shrink the problem eventually. But for now it is hard to see a good outcome.":
"Скорее всего, со временем масштаб проблемы будет сокращаться - хотя бы потому, что уровень смертности в постсоветское время остается очень высоким. Но на сегодняшний день хорошего выхода из положения все еще не просматривается." http://www.inosmi.ru/translation/240994.h
Типа, у нас тут проблема - слишком много русских в странах прибалтики. К счастью, смертность в пост-советских странах так высока, что проблема "постепенно рассосётся" (а если ещё поспособствовать со смертностью, так рассосётся быстрее).
По этому поводу у нас состоялся в некоей коллективной "кремлиноведческой" переписке любопытный обмен мнениями (потом с участием самого Лукаса). Я приведу десь большую часть его, как это перекидывалось в е-мэйлах (т.е. начинается снизу, более поздние записи сверху):
Bingo!
The Economist and ICG tells Macedonia to respect Albanian language rights. Those two are silent about Estonia and Latvia doing likewise with the Russian language. This relates to my earlier point about Pridnestrovie being nudged by several Western orgs. about the Moldovan Latin script, which most of Pridnestrovie's Moldovan population don't care to use, along with the Russian and Ukrainian communities there.
Meantime, Albanians in Macedonia have violently revolted (several years back) against the Macedonian government. In return, this violence gets preferential treatment. Note that the Russian speaking populations in Latvia and Estonia overwhelmingly voted for independence from the USSR.
These kind of double standards aren't brought up unlike some perceived others.
----- Original Message -----
From: Walter Scott
Cc: Sergey A. Sergeyev ; sshenfield@verizon.net ; martin.dewhirst@gmail.com ; Kirill Pankratov ; spcdalziel@yahoo.co.uk ; stephendewar2003@yahoo.co.uk ; davidjohnson2 ; deegrig ; irastraus ; jasoncooper ; konstantinsemin ; kolya ; Oluic, S. LTC G&EnE ; robertvbridge ; sparta13 ; st_sava ; vladsobell ; yuri ; jjatras@ssd.com ; trifkovic@nertzero.net ; lozansky@gmail.com ; masha@ccisf.org ; seansrussiablog@gmail.com ; falka@ksu.edu ; lselinsk ; euge_s@basical.com ; jonhellvig@hku.ru
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 7:57 PM
Subject: Re: Economist on Estonian -EU"Russian" minority
Andy
Grim post-Soviet mortality rates will shrink the problem eventually. But for now it is hard to see a good outcome.
Nothing in the above statement has a sniff of British dark sense of humor. It is hard to see how such a statement can be seen as humor. The second sentence is the clincher. The author or the paper's editor should have known better than to make it,
A third option would be to make a radical change, liberalising the citizenship law. The danger with that is that the Kremlin would swallow the concession, lick its lips, and demand the next course: the introduction of Russian as an official language, perhaps.
The article is very dismissive of the third option that most likely would ease tensions. Having dismissed the best option, the articlae is looking political vision and imagination. The Economist has already taken sides on the issue. Yet, it is the very same solution that has imposed on Macedonia by the European Union, to satisfy that country's Albanian minority. If the Economist were to uphold established EU standards and principles it would be advocate the third option rather than dismiss it, or even worse warn against its danger, without explainig what the danger might be from having the Russian language made official.
It would be nice to think that instead of sitting around worrying what the Kremlin and its local allies were planning for the demonstrations' anniversary, a team of bright-eyed Estonian information warriors were planning a series of clever, witty and headline-grabbing stunts that would leave their opposite numbers in Moscow flummoxed.
This is about as close as the article came to British sense of humor. Written with what appears to be Biritish glee.
Sir I
***
From Mike Averko
Re: British humor
Subject: Re: Economist on Estonian -EU"Russian" minority
Like the James Bond one liners after bumping someone off?
Keep in mind that EL is a fan of the bigoted (no hyperbole) anti-Russian Captive Nations Committee.
He's also a well traveled journalist, who you would think should be up to snuff on how some others might see things.
At a RFE/RL gig televised by CSPAN, he snarled at Putin's attending an OIS meeting where the Malaysian leader said comments that can be characterized as anti-Jewish. I don't recall EL speaking out against the Lviv based chant of: we will drown the Moscali in the blood of the Jews. Umland's excuse is that he's not an expert on Ukrainian nationalism. More like he's a willing propagandist for it.
Note how JRL ran a rather subjective feature on "Russian nationalism" without doing such with the West Ukrainian variant. Note how the Action Ukraine Report is a much better advocate for Orange like issues when compared to JRL carrying sincerely pro-Russian/pro-West English language source material. Among other things: reference, the lack of attention given to the Captive Nations Committee and bias favoring Oliver Bronsen/LR over some other sources.
Mike Averko
*****
Edward Lucas in the Economist: "Grim post-Soviet mortality rates will shrink the problem eventually"
Kirill in response: That's essentially saying in plain words that "Good Russian is a dead Russian.... This is beyond despicable."
Hmmmm, speaking as a Brit who doesn't particularly agree with Edward Lucas, I think you're missing the darkly deadpan (and very peculiar) British sense of humour.
Best wishes
Andy
2008/4/25 Mike Averko <mikeaverko@msn.com>:
I caught that upon further glance.This is to be expected because it's a step below some other examples.Douglas Muir of Fistful of Euros (a Global Voices propped seemingly neo-liberal pro-EU/Sorosian blog) positively wrote about wishing for the Russian population in Pridnestrive (Trans-Dnierter) to show a trend of leaving that disputed territory as a means of achieving his vision of what's good for it.I remember Stephen Cohen going from one American TV station after another saying how the Chechens say the Russians kill their people. This was during the Moscow theatre siege. Recall Sontag and Mahre receiving flack for their 911 comments. Many would rightfully consider it intolerable for a Stephen Cohen like academic/pundit to discuss Israeli actions against Palestinians, at the time of the murderous siege at the Munich Olympics.In this below piece brought up by Sergey, the outrage is comparatively limited. Fault the venues which prop Oliver Bronsen (LR) like characters as they have little if anything to post about the clearly bigoted anti-Russian like advocacy of the Captive Nations Committee. Fault those court appointed Russia friendlys who don't speak out against this abomination. As long as they get theirs.At a venue, I recently recognized a non-Russian/long time Russia based media person, who casually said the number of "Russophobes" (more like bigots) is small in numbers and influence. The suggestion being that it's overrated to discuss them. Imagine the general politically correct knee jerk reply if that were to be said of other types of bigotry, which receive greater scorn. Most Whites aren't anti-Black. Should that mute the discussion of anti-Black bigotry? Most non-Jews aren't anti-Jewish. Does that stop an active monitoring of anti-Jewish prejudices?Many non-Russian "experts" of Russia remain largely aloof of all this. Conversely, many a Russian born Russians seem unaware of the extent of these biases.As reconfirmed to me by some academics, North American Ukrainian studies programs have a nationalist (Galician influenced variant) influence, which explains the Kuzios, Motyls and Umlands. I understand that Umland is now based at Harvard, which is quite appropriate given that institution's slant. Russian studies programs have a comparatively limited Russocentric sentiment. I recall seeing Pipes on CSPAN speak negatively about the American based Russian academics of the 1950s and before - "The White Russian emigres". They (Vernadsky, Karpovich and Kliuchevsky) were far more historically objective than him.Even if it's for free, I'll not travel and listen to the likes of Burger and Kuchins on a pedestal.----- Original Message -----From: Kirill PankratovCc: spcdalziel@yahoo.co.uk ; stephendewar2003@yahoo.couk ; davidjohnson2 ; deegrig ; irastraus ; jasoncooper ; konstantinsemin ; kolya ; Oluic, S. LTC G&EnE ; robertvbridge ; sirivanhoe98 ; sparta13 ; st_sava ; vladsobell ; yuri ; jjatras@ssd.com ; trifkovic@nertzero.net ; lozansky@gmail.com ; masha@ccisf.orgSent: Friday, April 25, 2008 2:59 PMSubject: RE: Economist on Estonian -EU"Russian" minorityThat's not the point.
The original author has drawn attention to the article in which the "nuevo Cold Warrior" E. Lucas and The Economist truly hit the new low:
"Grim post-Soviet mortality rates will shrink the problem eventually" - speaking about the civil rights problem for Russian-speaking population of Estonia (whom he called "Soviet migrants stranded by the empire's collapse" - in reality people who legally lived and worked there for decades, and many of whom were born there).
That's essentially saying in plain words that "Good Russian is a dead Russian", and if something can be done to "speed up the process" (wink, wink), that's only for the better.
This is beyond despicable.
I guess if the next time Al Qaeda will blow up some office building full of neocon "wonks" and "journalists" like Lucas, I'd be applauding "shrinking of a problem" of proliferation of war-mongering thugs.
Kirill Pankratov
From: mikeaverko@msn.com
To: maily2k@mail.ru; sshenfield@verizon.net; martin.dewhirst@gmail.com
CC: spcdalziel@yahoo.co.uk; stephendewar2003@yahoo.couk; davidjohnson@erols.com; deegrig@yahoo.com; irastraus@aol.com; jasoncooper@tiraspoltimes.com; konstantinsemin@rcn.com; kolya@uri.edu; Steven.Oluic@usma.edu; pkirill88@hotmail.com; robertvbridge@yahoo.com; sirivanhoe98@yahoo.com; sparta13@ix.netcom.com; st_sava@alumni.fdu.edu; vlad.sobell@dir.co.uk; yuri@discovery.org; jjatras@ssd.com; trifkovic@nertzero.net; lozansky@gmail.com; masha@ccisf.org
Subject: Re: Economist on Estonian -EU"Russian" minority
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 05:33:01 -0400
In fairness, I understand that EL was against moving the Soviet war memorial.I met an ethnic Russian from Estonia who noted how the Soviet era had an official bilingual makeup in the Estonian SSR, which was often evident in reality.Note how several Western orgs. made a fuss about Pridnestrovie (Trans-Dniester) needing to respect Latin alphabet rights to the Moldovan language. This despite most of its Moldovan population preferring Moldovan in the Moldovan Cyrillic script or Russian. Russian language usage in Estonia and Latvia is comparatively greater. Yet orgs. like the EU and ICG don't stress such minority rights in those two Baltic states.Among other things, don't be surprised to see such matter overlooked at a certain wonk fest in Kazakhstan.I note how "Kosova" media is represented at that gathering unlike media from the disputed former Soviet territories.----- Original Message -----From: Sergey A. SergeyevSent: Friday, April 25, 2008 5:09 AMSubject: Economist on Estonian -EU"Russian" minority
> Трудная задача для прибалтов ("The Economist", Великобритания)
> 25 апреля 2008
На саммите НАТО в Бухаресте президент России Владимир Путин обвинил членов альянса в том, что они не заставляют эти две страны дать равные права так называемым 'русским' (имея в виду советских мигрантов, оставшихся в Латвии и Эстонии, когда развалилась империя).
> Скорее всего, со временем масштаб проблемы будет сокращаться - хотя бы потому,
> что уровень смертности
!!??
Perhaps, UK not a Europe .Reich ?
> в постсоветское время остается очень высоким. Но на сегодняшний день хорошего выхода
> из положения все еще не просматривается.
http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11080034
http://www.inosmi.ru/translation/240994.html
===================================================================
What about all that pseudo - politologist's jazz? Broken leg's conclusions ?
What kind of British "Oxbridge" author graduated?
Or magazine hire talents "from the street" ?
Be in EU and not grant normal passport to legal person?This is
Soviet method or Tzarist method or US of XIX cent .
No guys this is not "Egalite , fraternite ,liberte"
=================
Best regards,
Sergey mailto:maily2k@mail.ru
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Сам Лукас вроде бы не вёдит в список адресов, но кто-то ему рассказал. Я получил от него конфидециальное сообщение, которое я не буду здесь приводить (общий смысл - я его неправильно понял, и вообще, типа что мне перед ним извиняься надо). Ниже мой ответ ему:
Mr. Lucas,
The point of discussion is not the mortality statistics in the former USSR world. And I don't think there is any misunderstanding here.
There is a problem: too many Russians is the Baltic states (Estonia in particular) - that was expressed numerous times not only in this article, but pretty much in all of your writing on this subject.
"...for now it is hard to see a good outcome" - tells the next sentence. But, fortunately, the death rates in the post-USSR are so high, that this "will shrink the problem eventually".
Yes, we understand you perfectly well.
Have a nice day.
